Thursday morning I was shaken out of my mundane weekday routine by a surprising question from my teenage daughter on the way to school. It surprised me for a couple of reasons:
1. In the past my daughter has not been open to conversing about spiritual matters.
2. None of us are morning people. No one is usually talkative, much less thinking about deep theological issues at 7:30ish. I’m certain my children’s morning moods are genetically assigned by their dear old dad. I am not conversant or even pleasant company until around 10:00 most days.
So, imagine my surprise when my daughter blurts out of the blue, “Mom got mad at me the other day.”
I only offered a muffled “Mmmph” as a reply: an indication for her to continue the thought.
“I told mom I didn’t believe atheists would ‘go down there'”, she pointed her finger downward ominously. “She got really mad at me for saying that. What do you think?”
I blinked hard a couple of times and opened my mouth but no words immediately tumbled out. She had taken me completely offguard. I didn’t expect this kind of question from her, but I knew it was a wonderful opportunity to present gospel truth. I tried to dissipate the morning mental fog that usually blankets my mind for the better part of the morning hours and form a cognizant reply. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit brought a scripture immediately to mind. “Well, to be honest, the bible clearly states that atheists will most certainly go to hell. Are you familiar with the famous John 3:16 passage?”
She shrugged, “I think so… ”
“it starts out, ‘God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life’. Belief in Christ gives us eternal life. A couple of verses later the bible tells us what happens to those who don’t believe. It says that those who don’t believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. Atheists don’t believe that God exists. It logically follows that they would not believe that God sent his Son into the world to save them, thus they will will not trust on him to save them from their sins. Any atheist who persists in his belief will perish.”
My daughter didn’t say anything for a few moments. I glanced over and could tell that she was pondering this profound truth. At last she replied, “But I have friends who are atheists. I’m sure God wouldn’t send them ‘down there’. Jenny’s an atheist, but she’s really nice!”
I had to be careful here because this was no longer a mere intellectual exercise; her emotions were now involved. “God looks at things much differently than you and I do. What we may judge to be nice may be judged as sin to God, who knows our every thought and deed. People sometimes mistakenly believe since God so loves the world that he would not punish anyone for a few little sins, but the truth is, little sins to us are a very serious matter to God. Every sin we commit is an act of open rebellion to the God who created us. Yes, God is loving, merciful and compassionate but he is also a just God and justice must be served. Do you think a judge who lets a murderer go free simply because he had compassion for him is a good judge?”
She shook her head. I continued. “Well, neither can God be good or just if lets sin go unpunished. To God every sin committed against him is as offensive to him as murder is to us.”
All this information appeared to burden her mind so I decided to stop at that point. I wanted her to seriously consider the holy justice and wrath aspects of God’s character before plunging into his infinite grace and mercy through Jesus Christ. I allowed the severity of God’s law to plow the untilled soil of her heart: to remove the thorns, thistles and rocks contained therein. When the Holy Spirit brings a strong conviction of her deep sinfulness, the gospel will suddenly become very precious to her.
Interestingly, my daughter attended adult church with me this Sunday as pastor wrapped up his series on Examples Worth Imitating with a message on the humility of Jesus. The very truths I had driven home with my daughter were reaffirmed by my pastor’s point concerning Christ humbling himself purposely so as to absorb God’s wrath and to secure God’s grace. He boldly preached the gospel and punctuated it by reiterating what I had said concerning atheists not being saved. My pastor said that faith in Christ is the only way of salvation and if you miss him you’ve just plain missed it! I believe the events of this week were divinely ordained and by God’s providence my daughter has both received the law that shows her need of Christ and the gospel call which commands her to repent and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of her sins. Saints, keep her in your prayers!
I remember going through a similar spell of angst for my unsaved friends when I was seventeen. Unfortunately for me I didn’t have anybody to give sound answers to my questions. I began to form my own ideas about God and his judgment. In the process I erected my own personal idol. My God had similar traits to the God of the bible but I threw out all the characteristics which made me uncomfortable. My god was not the one true God. I lived for several years clinging to my idol until the glory of the living God overshadowed me and changed my heart. Hopefully, by standing up for God’s truth, no matter how hard it may be to accept, I can help my daughter to resist the natural human tendency to manufacture idols instead of worshiping the God of the bible.
I’m not picking on atheists in particular in this post. I’m simply responding to a question posed by my daughter. In her mind, atheists are obviously anti-God so she earnestly wonders about their fate. Truth be told, agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and Secular Humanists all share the same dilemma with atheists. Yes, even professing Christians can share the same fate as atheists. The question is, ‘Who has called upon the name of the Lord? Who has believed our report that the forgiveness of sins lies only upon God’s grace through the spilled blood of Jesus, who loved us and gave himself up for us? All men, regardless of the belief system they have either been raised with or adopted as their own, are responsible to God for either rejecting or accepting the salvation that is only available by looking unto Jesus.
A Peculiar Pilgrim 
The real God there knows not what is aetheist, nor waht is theist. God loves all unconditionally. All are God’s children. Blame none. Love all.
There’s no hell; there’s no heaven. All a mind’s myth and phobia.
really now???? an can you back that claim? I mean seeing howvsmart you are and all. I bet you believe that aliens created the world I mean once your god dawkins believe that. oh and one more thing why don’t you go arguevwith Francis Collins and all the other top scientist who does believe in god….tell them he is not real seeing how smart you are all.
Can’t tell if trolling or not?
Just out of morbid curiosity:
Are you okay with people being judged on belief rather than actions? Are you comfortable with that? Does it seem just to you?
(Just to be clear, I’m curious of your feelings, with have nothing to do whether your religion is true or false.)
Typo: …which have nothing to do with whether your religion is true or false.
I know that you’re not deliberately picking on atheists with this post but I figured I’d give you at least some perspective from an atheist’s viewpoint.
The universe the Bible paints doesn’t match up with the universe science uncovers. Since we atheists come from an outside viewpoint, when we try to decide the validity of Biblical texts we have to use the scientific method, which allows for reproducible evidence, which proves it’s an effective method to test reality.
When we take this scientific minded approach to the Bible it falls short, in studies prayer has no positive effect on the ill and many other tests, thus we conclude the Bible is false. I mean the historicity of the Bible is also fairly subject (for example: there is no archaeological evidence for Jews ever being held as slaves inside Egypt, a lot of modern historians think they may have actually been a faction of Canaanites). Also, from a philosophical standpoint, an infinite punishment for a finite crime doesn’t make any sense.
I know this isn’t going to change your mind about any of this. Your scripture says very clearly what happens to those who commit apostasy. I’m just saying, if the Bible is supposed to be the word of God, how can so many people look at it and see so many flaws?
I’m going to respond to the prayer test because I have too though about that. I take it that you had 2 groups of ill people. One is to be prayed for while the other isn’t. To avoid any placebo effect, neither is told. From a theist’s point of view, I find two problems with this test. One, it states very clearly in the Bible not to test God, which is exactly what took place. Second, the people who were praying probably wanted the person to get better. However, the reason they were praying was to perform a test, not to truly pray. That made the prayer pointless because it was meant to serve those who were performing the test, not the people who were ill. It isn’t a prayer, and therefore, you won’t see any effects of the prayer. Also, God sometime just says no, and we have to accpet that. I’m not trying to attack the way you do things. I am just saying that these things should be taken into account.
I liked your post ;especially the last paragraph which states ALL men are responsible unto God for either rejecting or accepting salvation available through Jesus.
Sulochanosho,
Upon what authority do you make such bold claims?
Great post, Brandon. I will keep your daughter in my prayers! These are such hard things for our minds and hearts to wrestle with. I find when I talk with unbelievers or believers, they all wrestle with sin & grace, justice and mercy.
Thanks very much for the post. It’s amazing what our theology does to us when it barrels down from the theoretical to land right in our laps.
…and it looks like you got some new visitors dropping by with that title of yours! I’ll be watching to see if sulochanosho comes back to answer your reply.
And please know, your daughter will be in my prayers tonight.
Morsec0de,
I will respond to your questions in a post.
Sisyphus Fragment,
The trouble I find with the scientific method as applying to spiritual matters is that the rationale of finite, limited beings such as ourselves automatically limits the scope of testing reality. Since we don’t possess all knowledge of all things in the universe (or outside of it) we cannot possibly process all there is to observe to make the most rational assumptions. The bible speaks of a vast unseen reality where angels and demons exist, exert influence, protect, wage war etc. God is present everywhere and upholds all creation by the word of his power. The scientific method cannot measure these realities to either prove or disprove it.
I probably will respond to the infinite punishment for finite sins in a post. It is a valid question and one I have wrestled with in the past. Thanks for posting.
You write “(1) The trouble I find with the scientific method as applying to spiritual matters is that the rationale of finite, limited beings such as ourselves automatically limits the scope of testing reality.
(2) Since we don’t possess all knowledge of all things in the universe (or outside of it)
(3) The bible speaks of a vast unseen reality where angels and demons exist, exert influence, protect, wage war etc”
Interesting thoughts indeed.
First you say you are limited in everything
(almost) and *if* that statement is true, then how on earth you have the ability to come to any conclusion that could be termed as correct? How can you be sure that your “belief” or even thinking ( if it is a thinking ) is not misguided? What is the limit of limitations that you have?
The next point that you write is about “all things in universe or outside it “. I need to point out here, how we “abuse” language. What is universe? As per Wiki, I quote ” The universe is commonly defined as the totality of everything that exists,[1] including all physical matter and energy, the planets, stars, galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space,[2][3] although this usage may differ with the context (see definitions, below). The term universe may be used in slightly different contextual senses, denoting such concepts as the cosmos, the world, or nature.” Now, can there be anything outside the totality ?
The third point is that though I claim to be limited as stated by you ref(1) and not all knowledgeable as stated by you ref(2), still you go on to claim to be “qualified” to certify that “Bible speaks of unseen *reality*…angels, devils etc “. What is it that gives you/qualifies you to cerfity that this statement about Bible and the ‘reality’ that it “speaks off” ? How can you for sure say that what is stated there in is true and not just some statements that cannot be verified and can create fear in minds of people who are not willing to think and so decide to believe to save themselves from the “eternal” hell etc?
eager to hear from you
I am a 13 year old girl. I am an athiest. I belief in proven science. People who tell me I’m going to hell scare me. They hurt my feelings. I wish people could see these things in athiest perspective. We get trashed, they say were going to hell. But we stand strong. But it really hurts…really does. I hope you consider this…and stay stron with your beliefs as i stay strong in mine.
Kristine,
Thank you! I covet your prayers.
God Bless!
beaconlight Says:
Sulochanosho,
Upon what authority do you make such bold claims?
Beaconlight, I respect your view. Variety is the beauty of this existence.
Views, words may differ – that too is the reality and beauty of this existence.
A vast phenomena of this existence still remain unknown. Scientists too nod it. Everything is a mere grappling in the dark, in this conext and sense. Religions not excluded.
Mutual trust and forbearance may play a role. We need to keep in our view the limit. Thanks.
Sisyphus Fragment,
To speak from an atheist viewpoint, you would have to claim there’s absolutely no God. In order for that to be true, one would have to have searched all possible knowledge pertaining to this universe. We (humans) don’t even know a fraction of 1% of all that is or pertains to this universe. Thomas Edison once said, “We don’t know a millionth of one percent about anything.” For the sake of ease, let’s round up–way up–and say we know exactly 1% of everything there is to know concerning the universe. In that remaining 99%, would you might think that there’s the possibility of God’s existence?
The trouble with the scientific method is that it is only limited to our existing knowledge, and even the possibility of the gain of a jot or tittle of more knowledge. The point is that it doesn’t account for all of the unknown knowledge (the remaining 99%+) that we are totally ignorant of.
God is an eternal being who exists beyond our possible knowledge. Since He is eternal–or infinite–He cannot be discovered by our very limited and finite methods for discovering knowledge.
You write ” God is an eternal being who exists beyond our possible knowledge. Since He is eternal–or infinite–He cannot be discovered by our very limited and finite methods for discovering knowledge.”
Nice. If God is an eternal being who *exists beyond our possible knowledge….cannot be discovered by finite methods …” as you say it true, then what use is there by *assuming* or “believing” about such a being?
All your actions, be it thinking, writing, posting in here, discussing, analyzing etc – all actions are using your “finite” methods that is available to you. Therefore, if you “believe” that you have limitations and God is beyond our knowledge, then even this “belief” could be a wrong belief.
Sometimes it is good to think a little further. What could be the reason for such a confusion? Is it because ” I ” limit God as a “being” ? food for thought?
cheers
Hello Spice,
Interesting thought of yours.
I would like to go along with you and can even put it such that
” in relation to the room that you sit, you are only a dot on an A4 size paper; in relation to the building in which your room is located, you become dot of a dot, in relation to the street comprising of so many building, you become a dot of a dot of a dot of a dot….such that in relation to the universe ie: Totality, you are just a dot of a dot of a dot of a………dot.
In other words how “insignificant” you are in comparison to the infinity ie: totality!!
But then are you insignificant?
The so called insignificant you know that you are a dot of a dot of a dot of……in relation to the infinity. You do have that knowledge? If you are really so insignificant, how can you have such knowledge of the infinity? Means you know a lot and you also know that you do not know a lot. But your “not knowing that there is more to know itself” is a very important indication that you are on a ladder to learn, know more.
What atheist says is that there is not verifiable, rationally explainable evidence to show such a being ( if it is a being ) and more than all that for this nature to exist or resolve such a being is not a must.
When you say you “believe” that a book is a scripture please note that it is you who is “certifying” or validating such a book to be a scripture. The same you is not willing to certify some other book.
In other words, you in one breath claims you have limitations and in the next second claim that you have the capability to certify that
God is so and so or like this or that.
very odd situation, is it not?
food for thought
enjoy
I just don’t find logic that a man or being formed the earth. I would say more but I’d rather not insult your beliefs in any way.
Hi Brandon. Good article. And, I’m praying for your daughter!
We serve a Just and Holy God Who must punish sin. But He has chosen to show His love in that even while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
One verse that has come to mean so much to me over the past months is 2 Cor. 5:21 : “He Who knew no sin became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ”.
God showed his love for us, but not at the expense of His justice. The Judge of the universe took off His robe, paid the penalty and offers payment to all who will repent from their sin and trust in what Christ did.
May we pray that eyes are opened, even as the Lord’s return draws ever closer.
Tim
The “I” Must Die!
In as much as i can ‘see’,
That which is of the ‘I’ in me,
So it is i yearn, and to Our Father cry,
For deliverance from all that is of the ‘I’.
The ‘I’, born of “imag”ination and selfish desire,
As lust, greed, and pride, stoked a consuming fire ;-(
A fire burning out of control, as ‘I’ leads the way,
It’s smoke concealing the fleshly mind that leads one astray ;-(
Yet even in the smoke, searing heat, and blindness of ‘sight’,
Truth can pierce the blackness of darkness, revealing “The Light”!
And nothing can hide from “The Light”, so “Light” reveals the “I”,
Allowing one to “see” clearly, and clearly the “I” must die!
But to live, yet die, seems an impossible task,
And so we need of “Our Father”, the impossible to ask.
Help me to “deny myself(die to self)(die to ‘I’)” Father!
And as HE Helps, HE reveals more and more of “The Selfless One”, The One Who leads His Brethren on “The Way to The Truth of The Life”. He Who was, and is The Messiah, The Son of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL!
And as The Messiah desired above all else, so also will His Brethren desire above all else, “Father, not my will, But THY Will Be Done”…….
The poem i have recorded above was begun in Creel, Chih, Mexico in ’92, a time when i sought to live and experience a simple and spiritual life. Left Mexico in ’93, yet returned in ’04. Then on 1/26/05 the poem was completed, and ‘completion’ is near for each and every one of us. And for “the poor and needy”, thankfully so…….
Translated, “corruptible to incorruptible” indeed and Truth…….
Home at last…….
Forever free from The “I”…….
All Thanks, Praise and Glory Be Unto “Our Father”…….
And while there is breath(spirit) there is hope many will “see”,
“see” The “I” for what it is, and then desire to be set free!
And that Spirit that was in The Messiah shall “set you free, free indeed”!
So, There Is Hope!
For Miracles do happen!
Hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving “a love of The Truth” for they will “see” The Light that is The Messiah, they will “see” that The Life is of The Spirit(not seen with the natural eye), and most certainly not of the flesh or fleshly mind(“I”)…….
Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(darkness) that is of this world and it’s systems of religion, for “the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one”(1Jn5:19) indeed and Truth…….
Thankfully Truth is never ending…….
(Returned to this place called the u.s. of a. in June of ’05, yet to return to the simplicity that is rural Mexico would be welcomed, yet i realize that in all things it must be “Father(Creator) not my will, But THY Will Be Done…….)
If ” I ” is dead, then is there any thing left? Normally the answer is yes, the world continues to exist. Funny, because, for every “I”, if and when that “I” is not there, where is the world? to say “for others” there need to be an “I” ? food for thought?
cheers
ehhh well they shouldn’t but you have to be dead to find that out.
This is a tough one and an excellent illustration of what happens when we have a) a lot more unchurched / agnostic / atheist households and b) more religious diversity in our populations.
40 years ago, this wouldn’t have even been a discussion because a) Jenny (neighbour girl) would have been a Christian of some sort and b) Pilgrim’s daughter would be wondering about one or two people she knew of (but didn’t know well) or about unbelievers in general.
Nowadays, we know people of so many different faiths that it’s hard to imagine we will not all share in some sort of Paradise. I guess if I were to be asked if Christians would go to heaven I would say ‘yes’ and about everyone else who belonged to different faiths (i.e. excluding atheists) it would have to be ‘I don’t know but let’s hope so’. Maybe Pilgrim can help me out here.
But as an extension of this question, it is easy for mainline churches to then go further and delve into moral relativism where ‘anything goes’ — i.e. forget about the notion of sin. And this seems to be where we are heading at the moment. Am particularly concerned about emerging churches and what exactly they are teaching, not what they say they are teaching.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts from Pilgrim or others who would know.
Is there anything that can be termed as “sin”?
What is there is only knowledge and lack of knowledge. If you have some knowledge, then you value values. When you value values, you do not become dogmatic about dogma. When you are not dogmatic about dogma, then you are one to respect balance, equilibrium. Any disturbance brings instability and as the system tries to get back to equilibrium.
What surprises is why we human beings – though we live most part of our life in a balanced way – do not see or respect this balance and become blinded to dogmas which in other words is religion too. food for thought?
cheers
Atheism isn’t a religion.
Sulochanosho,
Quote: A vast phenomena of this existence still remain unknown. Scientists too nod it. Everything is a mere grappling in the dark, in this conext and sense. Religions not excluded.
I agree that religion can be a mere grappling in the dark if you define religion as man’s attempt to grasp God. The Christian faith is just the opposite. It is God reaching out to man. In order to accomplish this God has revealed himself and his plan of redemption through his holy word. Since God is truth his word must also be true, every jot and tittle of it. In this way man doesn’t need to aimlessly grasp at the darkness. “The secret things belong to the Lord our God but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever.” (Dt 29:29)
hello,
you write (1) “The secret things belong to the Lord our God but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever.” (Dt 29:29)
(2) agree that religion can be a mere grappling in the dark if you define religion as man’s attempt to grasp God.
I do not know why you do not see the contradiction in the above two statements!
Any “so called revelation” is known to you and me is only thru a human being and that is no exception even in the (1) Dt 29:29. Now, how can any one say Dt had no limitations that any human being is or was supposed to have had.
And until a couple of hundred years back earth was supposed to be flat as per the revelation and then God decided to reveal thru some one that it is not flat, but spherical etc. Earlier penicillin was not revealed and then god decided to reveal that to help humanity to handle infection. And see the fantastic changes that has been taking place making this earth almost a global village! Brining awareness to the door of almost every one who is interested to learn a little more! All by the continuous efforts of humanity.
——————————
By the way, do you subscribe to the intellectual property rights ?
cheers
Amen, Tim. Good thoughts. Thanks for your prayers.
Francisco,
Umm… I don’t think I get the gist of your comment.
HiddenAce says:
“ehhh well they shouldn’t but you have to be dead to find that out.”
Assuming that your response is to the title of the post I would heartily disagree. The main symptom of human sin is deception. We have this innate belief that we are good by nature and that in our own strength we can be pleasing to God. The exact opposite is true.
churchmouse,
Don’t know if this answers your question or not, but we shouldn’t give uncertain replies about people of differing faiths. All religions share a desire to perform virtuous and noble deeds but this isn’t how salvation can be obtained. Our corrupt hearts prevent us from ever having pure motives in anything we do, thus our supposedly good works are destroyed. Only Christ’s good works stand up to God’s perfect standard of righteousness. We must agree with the word where Jesus proclaims that “I am the way, the truth and the life. No comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) Our faith in Christ and his mighty works down on our behalf can save us. We can’t budge from this foundation even a fraction of an inch.
Okay, thank you, Pilgrim, for your answer! Much appreciated!
Hi Brandon how are you, it has been quiet some time since I have been on your site. I am really joyful that at the appointed time that you were able to talk to your daughter about such an important subject. Gods timing is always right. I will continue to pray for your family. Remember it is Gods will that none should perish. It is our choice to believe or not to believe. Some has chosen not to believe. He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18. It is Gods authority who says so!!!!! For those who says under what authority.
In Christ,
Floyd
hahaha I see we have some upset people here…what you say is true my friend straight across the board and whether people choose to believe and follow or not is there decision even though it is not such a good one i would rather them try jesus and let him show them that he is real rather than them going to the lake of fire because you never want to see people go there and you cant say they learned their lesson because there is no next time for them so i encourage anyone who reads this to follow the plan of salvation in acts 2:38 dont shy away from it let god into your life and let him give you peace and happiness that nothing or no one can give you….seriously no one can…i mean your live will have purpose you wont be searching for yourself way into your 40’s and 50’s because your identity is in christ and what he has for you no one can take away unless you give it away so my friend be encourage and continue to fight the good fight.
Well this kinda stinks for all of us if you ask me.
I’m going to be going to about 50 “hells” at once. Think of all the religions I’m not abiding to.
So by approximation, since everyone “knows” their religion is right,
every single human being who has ever died in the history of existance has gone to some other religions hell…damn…grimm outlook.
I would like to point out that religions of most sorts especially christianity and islam cause generally moral people to do immoral things. Normally Jenny would be seen as an ordinary, decent person but as soon as one applies a biblical perspective suddenly Jenny’s going to hell to burn for ever and receive eternal punishment, and although you barely know the girl you are already condemning her to eternal damnation. btw on the sublect of the Christianity being the only true religion because of the bible being the word of god: how would you know? because remember now, humans are corrupt and imperfect but we claim with absolute conviction that the bibles true. Also, out of all the religious books i find the bible positively immoral. It glorifies rape, degrades women, and calls on the death sentence for homosexuals and cheeky teenagers.
The Bible has established itself as authority based on several factors.
1. Just because there has been no evidence found that Egypt had Hebrew slaves (according to you) does not mean that it is not there. There has been MUCH discovered in recent generations that was not known before.
2. Prophecies fulfilled…..there are MANY.
3.The Bible is not a scientific book, and therefore should not be held to scientific scrutiny, no more than my child’s science class book should be held to spiritual scrutiny.
4. The disciples (with the exception of one) all died horrific deaths. One would not die for something they know to be a lie. What did they see and experience that made them decide that death, in the most painful ways, was to be withstood rather than to recant. There are letters that were written by those that knew the disciples. I believe it was Polycarp that was a disciple of John.
5. No other “religion” establishes it’s authority by the above means that I have posted. Maybe someone more versed in apologetics can post more.
Soryy, but I feel I have to disagree with you that God is the one true way. Who’s to say that the Muslims or Jews aren’t correct, and you’re wrong? This is simply your belief, not truth, and I feel you should let your daughter decide for herself. There are many religions, each professing to be the only one with the path to Salvation. What if every Christian in the world is bound for eternal torment because the Sikhs were correct? Surely a forgiving God would understand that in a place with so many religions, it would be human nature to make mistakes and choose incorrectly? Would he send people to Hell for making a simple mistake? Or agnostics, who aren’t sure which deity to pledge their allegiance to? Or atheists, who simply try to make sense of things using logic which leads them (possibly mistakenly) to believe that there is no higher power? Again, if they’re wrong, it’s an honest mistake on their part. Surely a just God wouldn’t send people to a place of eternal punishment for using their supposedly God-given brains to try and understand things.
And for those in places like Chad, where Christianity has not arrived, yet the people may live perfectly good lives. You’re saying God would send them to Hell for an accident of birth? Something they can’t control? Think about it.
Thoughts of a LaVeyan Satanist.
(By the way, Pilgrim, no offence was intended by my post to either you or any other and I have no intention of telling you how to raise your daughter or any other children you may have. It was personal opinion and nothing more.)
No offense taken. I appreciate the honesty of your viewpoint. I am fascinated by perspectives outside my own worldview. It can only help me in the long run communicating the gospel to those who hold different beliefs. For instance, I had no idea what a ‘LaVeyan Satanist’ was until you brought it to my attention. I am now a little more enlightened by what the term ‘Satanist’ stands for.
I’ve been chewing on whipping up a brief post based off your comment. Would you mind a public interaction with your ideas?
Not at all. I am interested in seeing how a Christian might answer such questions, but it will add to the exchange if people of other faiths, with a different viewpoint to either of ours, join the discussion as well.
Wow. God judges people based on their beliefs rather than their actions?
Wouldn’t you agree that some people are just fortunate to inherit the “correct” religion/beliefs from their parents without having to try at all? That doesn’t put them on even footing with people who were born in Hindu, Muslim or Jewish households, does it? It gives them an unfair advantage.
What’s the situation with a loving and kind atheist who is good and loyal to her friends whatever religion they belong to, but who just never felt the need for religion because she had her own mind to guide her? What is God going to do with her? If God decides to throw her in Hell for her beliefs rather than her actions, we have to ask ourselves, what kind of God would do that? Not a loving and kind God assuredly. Egotistical seems like a more appropriate adjective.
And if the God out there has a personality like that, then I’d rather not be in Heaven with Him. I’d rather not be in Heaven with an unjust God like that. I’d rather be in Hell with the Devil who doesn’t pretend like God to be oh-so-loving and good.
And it’s been a year since you posted this. I hope your daughter is still using her love for humanity to make her choices about people. She seems like a promising individual.
Pingback: Dialogue with a Satanist « A Peculiar Pilgrim
congrats on your daughter starting on the road to discovering truth. (doubting, asking questions, looking for evidence and thinking for yourself). i hope oneday (soon) she accepts that there is no god or miracles. or at least to use her own brain to make decisions about people and life. not some guys 2000 years ago who wrote the bible (and also beleived the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it). anyways congrats on the freethinking intelligent daughter and try not to force your beliefs on her too much.
god doesn’t and can’t possible exist and even if he did he is an egocentric tyrant that should be rebelled against not worshiped. heaven and hell don’t exist they are just comforting illusions. what really happens when you die is you lose all conciousness and thought and self-awareness then you go into the ground and start decompising and feeding trees and maggots. it makes me happy that we are not stuck in an eternal firepit or an eternal place where you dont have to work for anything it just appears. i would get board of a life without purpose extremely quicly
please no religous hate comments or flaming
i respect the fictional charecter satan for doing what he believed is right and trying to overthrow that tyranny. i do not believe in satan or worship him any more than the fictional charecter god.
horrible atrocities have been commited in the name of religion. non have ever been commited because of lack of religion. just saying.
we are also free to make our own morals with what we think is right. (no obligations to stone a wife to death for having sex before she maried you.) your good book actually sais that. XD. jesus did exist his story was just greatly corrupted by christians attempting to gain fame in their religion. too bad it worked 😦
i greatly respect the fictional character satan for rebelling against tyranny and using his own brain not not some guys 2000 years ago who wrote the bible (and also believed the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it)
the Flying Spagetti Monster and the runescape god Guthix are both equally plausible as your god. they just dont claim to own the worlds most succesfull human fights and peace activist (Jesus)
please no religous hate comments or flaming
i respect the fictional charecter satan for doing what he believed is right and trying to overthrow that tyranny. i do not believe in satan or worship him any more than the fictional charecter god.
horrible atrocities have been commited in the name of religion. non have ever been commited because of lack of religion. just saying.
we are also free to make our own morals with what we think is right. (no obligations to stone a wife to death for having sex before she maried you.) your good book actually sais that. XD. jesus did exist his story was just greatly corrupted by christians attempting to gain fame in their religion. too bad it worked 😦
i greatly respect the fictional character satan for rebelling against tyranny and using his own brain not not some guys 2000 years ago who wrote the bible (and also believed the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it)
the Flying Spagetti Monster and the runescape god Guthix are both equally plausible as your god. they just dont claim to own the worlds most succesfull human fights and peace activist (Jesus)
sorry bout the double post
I just came by and saw this, i respect religious people with different thoughts and i do not believe in hell or heaven or even a certain god, but what kind of god will send non believers to hell, sure not a good one(according to what you are saying)
also i thought that god is the only one who decide and judge about that,not People!!! and some theists have a sense of superiority, that’s terrible really
why would a god care about his ego more than morals ?? weird
you daughter was so close to know the truth and she had compassion for people,you took that from her
I’d appreciate it if you would interact with what I’ve written before making some of the statements you have here.
If you had carefully read my post you would know that only a good God would punish open rebellion. Please interact with my analogy of the good judge if you have issue with this truth.
And how exactly is teaching what God has clearly communicated in his word judgmental? I’m not the one who judges atheists or anyone else but I do know from scripture that eternal life is found only in Christ. How else can God judge those whose sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus. How else can they be found innocent?
“And how exactly is teaching what God has clearly communicated in his word judgmental? ”
Many believers don’t agree with your concept on hell and sending atheists to it. they prove
this point of view from the bible too ( God’s book, words) so it’s definitely about you judging other
people because of their thoughts not their acts
even some christians think that atheists are going to heaven because they do good things not for gaining eternal life or fearing hell
I have a great idea for this good god. a heaven for all with different levels, related to human good achievements?
how would such a good god create such a terrible thing as hell? does he enjoy seeing people suffering there? I don’t get it, i really want to know, if god so loved the world why we see pain ??
If god is so perfect and good, all he creates will be perfect and good
Hello friend,
To quote you “If you had carefully read my post you would know that only a good God would punish open rebellion. Please interact with my analogy of the good judge if you have issue with this truth.”
Good God – Good judge…
Now, does not that warrant an explanation from you as to what is a good god and what is not a good god? Every word you write means to communicate something and don’t you wish you be understood as clear as possible?
cheers
“Many believers don’t agree with your concept on hell and sending atheists to it. they prove
this point of view from the bible too ( God’s book, words) so it’s definitely about you judging other
people because of their thoughts not their acts”
The historical, orthodox doctrine of hell is undisputed. Yes, recently some have challenged the idea, motivated, I believe, not by the teaching of scripture but by the inability to accept that the fluffy care bear God of modern evangelicalism could ever send someone to eternal punishment.
To often in our churches only the attribute of his divine love is spoken of and not his equally holy attributes of righteousness, judgment and wrath.
“even some christians think that atheists are going to heaven because they do good things not for gaining eternal life or fearing hell
I have a great idea for this good god. a heaven for all with different levels, related to human good achievements?”
Honestly, any ‘Christian’ who thinks atheists can get to heaven based on ‘good achievements’ doesn’t understand even the basic tenets of Christianity.
Scripture clearly teaches that even the righteous, good things we do are as filthy rags in God’s eyes. Every good deed is motivated, at root with self-interest and not God’s glory. We are called to repent of our dead works and cling to the finished, perfect work of Christ in faith. This is the only salvation available to us.
“And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)
“how would such a good god create such a terrible thing as hell? does he enjoy seeing people suffering there? I don’t get it, i really want to know, if god so loved the world why we see pain ??”
I’ll let scripture speak for itself here: “As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?”
All pain, sorrow and death is a result of sin, which is rebellion against God. And when you think about it, it makes sense. If we oppose the God who created us to be like him and live according to his holy and righteous commandments what would be the natural consequence of doing things in contradiction to God’s created order? Chaos! A wrecking of that good and natural order of things. The end result is suffering and pain.
Question God’s goodness if you like but God has a plan to restore the universe to its original blessed state.
“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:1-4)
People are becoming atheists for many reasons, because of many scientific ,logical,philosophical, historical ,good or whatever reasons , i was born a christian and im not convinced by the christian faith or even any religious faith , because there’s no evidence in religion, but many evidences that reject the idea of existent god or gods, in one word religion is man made.
I want to be convinced by what you are saying , truly, I hope Christianity is true, and there is a god who loves us all without exceptions and an eternal life waiting for us ( it will be a dream for me)..But it’s hard and impossible for an atheist after having logical knowledge with plenty of evidence, to return back to his original faith unless he saw this god coming down. so i can’t lie to myself and to others and believe without evidence,i want to know then to believe not to believe without knowing. { Faith means not wanting to know what is true.}
I read the bible many times, i know each phrase in bible and it’s meaning, and as “god” talked about the judgment day and punishments for , the opposite can be found in other phrases as
” forgive them father they know not what they do”
“Blessed are peacemakers,for they shall be called children of God” (an atheist can be a peacemaker)
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Matt 26:52.
“But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. Luke 6:27-32
“If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn your other cheek to him as well”
“Heaven is right here in the midst of you.” Luke: 17:21
there is many contradictions in bible, sometimes god is good sometimes he’s evil, seems that god have two personalities ( good and evil) even priests talk about how god was hard ( eye for an eye, killings, wars, violence in old testament) and how he turned to be good in new testament..
“I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword” (Gospel of Matthew 10:34)
“take a duffel bag if you have one and your money. And if you don’t have a sword, better sell your clothes and buy one”
“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” Luke 19:27
lots of other examples , specially in old testament
readers of the bible notice this obvious difference ( 2 faces for one lovely god!!) I’m just talking about goodness and badness, we can find many other contradictions in facts and history too.. the church has chosen only 4 bibles of many in The first council of Nicaea ( so according to christian doctrine god have many phrases, sometimes good one and sometimes evil ones)
it’s up to you to choose which side you want to follow in Christianity.. so when you say atheists are going to hell because of their thoughts that means you are choosing the terrible phrases in god’s word not the good ones, that’s why we see many other Christians who say atheists are going to heaven because their achievements, and they think that the person who say the opposite is not a true ‘christian’
another thing;
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus
If Hell Exists, Then I Believe That Most Humans Don’t Deserve To Go There (no-one on Earth deserves Eternal punishment simply because it’s impossible to commit a crime worthy of Eternal punishment. specially not believing ( it’s not a crime)
God Forgives Unconditionally, and hell exist! I love this magnificent quote for George Carlin:
– Religion has actually convinced people that there is an invisible man living in the sky, and he has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these things he will send you to a place full of fire, and smoke, and burn and torture forever and ever ’till the end of time…. but he loves you.
God loves me and he will send me to hell just because I’m atheist
If you were god would you send your good daughter to eternal hell?? if she was so good person and the only one who took care of you when you was sick and in need..THINK ABOUT IT!
I don’t think so! if it’s up to me i wont do it ! strange how some people can be more ‘good’ than ‘God’
“i was born a christian and im not convinced by the christian faith or even any religious faith , because there’s no evidence in religion, but many evidences that reject the idea of existent god or gods, in one word religion is man made.”
First I want to clarify something: No person is born a Christian. One must be ‘born-again’ to be a Christian. To be born-again is a supernatural act of God whereby he gives us new hearts that enables us to come to Christ in repentance and faith. Any faith apart from this is not saving faith and often ends in total unbelief, as in your case.
What evidence do you possess that shows God does not exist? How can you prove that the Christian religion is man-made and not inspired by God?
“{ Faith means not wanting to know what is true.}”
Where do you come up with this definition? The scriptural definition of faith is this: ‘Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” (Heb 11:1)
“there is many contradictions in bible, sometimes god is good sometimes he’s evil, seems that god have two personalities ( good and evil) even priests talk about how god was hard ( eye for an eye, killings, wars, violence in old testament) and how he turned to be good in new testament..”
There are no true contradictions in the bible but there are paradoxes. One paradox is that God is wrathful, yet merciful. These are simply two holy attributes of his divine character. And if you read carefully the Old Testament talks of his mercy as well as his wrath just as the New Testament speaks of his wrath as well as his forgiveness. God is just and must uphold his justice against those who commit evil to be true to his character. At the same time he has chosen to extend his love and mercy so that man might not perish. he did this at great personal cost, sending his Son to die a terrible death on the cross so that he could fulfill his justice while at the same time being merciful.
More later…
Exactly none born religious until society , family brainwash his mind with superstitious stories, i mean i was raised as a christian and believed in Christianity for a long period, then i started to think and realized that all religions are lies, including Christianity
“What evidence do you possess that shows God does not exist? How can you prove that the Christian religion is man-made and not inspired by God?”
What evidence do you possess that shows Zeus, Baal, Aphrodite, Bacchus, Brahma, Jupiter, Horus, Venus and many others do not exist? How can you prove that all old or new religions except Christianity are man-made?
I know your answer, because you think that these religions and gods are superstitions , lies and myths… for same reasons you don’t beleive in those gods, i don’t beleive in yours.
lots of evidence shows the truth, logical , philosophical, scientific evidences, even after reading the bible you’ll notice the contradictions, if you want i can send you a message in details showing the uncountable evidences on how religions and gods are man made, including Christianity.
the god you are talking about is merciful, just, and great ( all the stories in old testament shows your god, as an angry one, wants revenge, killings, wars, human humiliation …and after presenting these stories, “they say Oh god how merciful and just you are” and they start to sing “him” a song!!
Jesus was a normal person, he had some philosophical thoughts, but he was not the son of an imaginary god, Christianity took many ideologies from pagans like as 25 December, son of god, virgin Mary…
“God is just and must uphold his justice against those who commit evil to be true to his character” Atheists are not necessary evil, they can be good people with pure heart even more than you think
Please read the passage of The Sheep and the Goats : Matthew 25:31…. This god may judge on acts not thoughts.
Peace
See, what I have with your point that how can you proove god is man made, how can your proove he isn’t? Goes both ways.
I have been taught Christianity my whole life and the more i grow up I realize that the bible doesn’t really address people who have been taught anther religion or maybe never have been introduced to Christianity to begin with. Why should they be damned because they were taught something else or don’t want to accept what there told and to believe in it or they should go to hell, those are tactics that a cult should use. None of it adds up to me anymore. I see too many self right self righteous, self centered evangelical people that only think with one track minds to convince me otherwise. IS it truth or is it an escape for people to seek moral guidelines and keep from thinking if they will just rot in the ground when they die.
Perhaps,many of us may not like if I say:
Now, is it me, or are you going off on your own topic? There is, as far as I can tell, nothing in your Bible about this, about Hell becoming a new Heaven, etc. This leads me to believe you’ve just made it up on the spot. It’s one thing to believe in an illogical religion, but quite another to try writing your own gospel of fabrications. Some prophets several millenia may have managed to do it (The Bible) but people are far less credulous these days. You can’t honestly expect anyone to believe this merely on your word. They believe Christianity’s gospel because it’s old and sounds authoritative, but if there’s one piece of advice I must give today, it’s this; Don’t even bother trying. People aren’t quite that gullible.
I know Christians are often accused of self-righteousness, but this, sulochanosho, is just supreme arrogance. Wow…
Sounds like something straight out of Dianetics.
this is merely a “recruitment” mechanism put in place by the church.
“invite your friends or they are going to hell, you can’t be friends with people going to hell can you????” OMG YOU Must save them!
Seriously this is somewhat a joke. So you can lead a great life of great works and great compassion but sorry because you didnt say “yeah im a christian” your going to hell…
another thing… I love the “everyone else is going to hell and suffer eternal torture but me” belief.
I mean everyone… hindus, muslims, tons of christians, the whole lot, everyone not in your church?
Have fun up there with just yourself, great times will be had by all. Seriously stop laying that kind of mind trip on your daughter. My god is not bound by an old book and you seem to see things as you wish for some reason.
You should read your bible about how sinners are consumed and shall recieve eternal death, not eternal torture.
this is not torture…
They shall be dashed to pieces like a potter’s vessel. — Psalm 2:9.
They are like the beasts that perish.—Psalm 49:20.
As the snail that melteth, let every one of them pass away.— Psalm 58:8.
Like the untimely birth of a woman.—Psalm 58:8.
As wax melteth before the fire.—Psalm 68:2.
He shall take them away as with a whirlwind.—Psalm 58:9.
As a whirlwind passeth so is the wicked no more. —Proverbs 10:25.
As an oak whose leaf fadeth and as a garden that hath no water.—Isaiah 1:30.
Shall be as tow.—Isaiah 1:31.
Like chaff before the wind.—Psalm 1:4.
Like wool eaten by moths.—Isaiah 51:8.
Consume as the fat of lambs.—Psalm 37:20.
Into smoke shall they consume away.—Psalm 37:20.
Shall become ashes under your feet.—Malachi 4:3
Like chaff that is burned up.—Matthew 3:12.
Like tares that are burned in the fire.—Matthew 13:40.
Like dried and withered branches are burned.—John 15:6.
Like bad fish cast on the shore.—Matthew 13:48.
Like a house built upon sand is ruined.—Luke 6:49.
Like Sodom and Gomorrah turned to ashes.—2 Peter 2:5-6.
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5: 28-29).
“Fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.” (Revelation 20:9)
“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:6)
“But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs; they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” (Psalm 37:20)
consume, cut off, devoured, withered… Does that sound like an eternal burning? Do you read the bible?
yes eternal fire burns in hell for the sinner… but souls don’t last in that fire(per the bible)forever… I don’t like to imagine torturing forever, sounds like you like the idea so your running with it.
I sure hope I see my atheist friends in heaven, they are good people and fun to hang out with! I would be sad if they went to hell…
My friend,
First we need to learn to live this very life that we have instead of worrying about something that we have no “Knowledge” off. There are no visible indications, that could be related or rationally or logically explainable to this effect.
Your this life is only “actions” and “experiences” . From actions, when you think, analyze and learn, you gain more knowledge to act better and it continues. Actions bring in clarity of vision if one converts this into experience.
cheers
what a load of self righteous nonsense this article is , just accept your ” belief” is illusion and that really it is a convenient comfort tool and crutch , why is it the way fanatics speak is always archaic and almost theatrical ? its laughable .
Welcome To This World
I think after reading the post of peculiar pilgrim, one need to watch this youtube too.
enjoy
cheers
This is very wrong..
You have given your daughter the fear of God. She will never have the courage to question her beliefs now..
I feel sorry for her.
She will never be an intellect. Because of you. Brainwashing Christian.
It`s quite obvious that your daughter is an atheist. She was probably just gauging your reaction to see what you think of atheism.
Hi there, Pilgrim!
Keep it up, you’re in the right way. Christ alone is the salvation, believing that He died for us, and then repenting and becoming a person who lives according to the Will of God is the only way. Other ‘paths’ won’t turn us into beings like angels after we die. On the contrary, they will lead us right to their developer, the devil himself. True God is one and He couldn’t confuse us offering us many ‘truths’, He is one and His Truth is one and the way to His Truth is one, He revealed us only one way, only one Son, only one Truth, He would never confuse us. Why should God have many contradictory ways or ‘paths’? All the other ‘paths’, all of them, in the end, you perceive that the devil is the controller behind all of them. He is finished and he wants to finish as many of us as possible with him before suffering the ultimate penalty. He is like the criminal who can’t leave the other members of the gang alone, he wants to take them with him to the jail too, he doesn’t admit to be condemned without taking as many people as possible together with him. Them God revealed the Truth through His Son, Jesus Christ, the only one who was not a deceiver (Krishna, Buddha, Krishnamurtis etc – all of them was deceivers), and the only one who will lead us to peace after death, all the others ‘saviours’ are cheaters and killers in fact.
God bless you!
In the Name of Jesus Christ,
Samuel
So, Samuel, you’re saying that all Sikhs, Buddhists, Jews, Pastafarians, Jedi, and advocated of any other religion in the world are all going to Hell?
Just because they don’t believe in the “right” God?
You total bigot.
You’re dismissing the beliefs of millions around the world simply because they don’t agree with yours?
What if the Jews are right? What if your God doesn’t exist at all?
And furthermore, what type of Christian are you?
Catholic? Protestant? Quaker? Born-again?
Reformation of the Church (insert date here)?
So many tiny factions, all claiming to be the one true path to God, to salvation, and all damning the others. It will be a miracle (if you’ll forgive the pun) if anyone gets to Heaven at all – IF it even exists.
Peddle your bigoted, damning views elsewhere.
I believe your religion is mere superstition with no more evidence to back it up, than voodoo has. Also, Calvinism (I’m assuming that’s your brand of Christianity) is chock-full of man-made assumptions which are a “reach”, scripturally speaking (for example, the entire TULIP doctrine.)
That being said, I would like to ask you a question, from within the framework of your own religion…
Okay, your god won’t tolerate the presence of sinners (whom “He” knew would be sinners before he created them… go figure.) That’s “His” right I guess. So why should atheists be eternally tortured? Why not just snuff them out of existence instead?
Don’t give me that BS about oblivion not being “punishment” – after all, if “Heaven” is really all that great, wouldn’t being deprived of it be a terrible punishment in and of itself?
By advocating belief in eternal torture (which has debatable scriptural support IMHO)you not only paint a picture of God as a petty, vengeful, insane tyrant (who gets “wrathful” at “His” creatures for failing a test “He” KNEW they’d fail before “He” even created them) but also brings up the question of whether an eternity spent in your god’s presence would that great of a deal anyhow.
Just saying, mind you…
I would like to propose that your analysis of my Christian faith is more chock-full of man-made assumptions than anything I’ve ever posted on this blog.
A simple response to your question would be that an unconscious punishment is no punishment at all. Being deprived of heaven is not punishment if the person simply no longer exists. Those who no longer exist cannot feel deprived of anything.
Eternal punishment is a difficult issue to digest but know this: God always does right and if he sees fit to punish sinners then I rest in the knowledge that he has done what is just and man gets exactly what he deserves. The Day of Judgment will make this plain to us all.
How an all loving merciful god would send people to eternal punishment just because they are atheists?? he looks more like an evil god.
are you sure your daughter is not an atheist?
I’m sure your daughter will sleep easy knowing her friend will be thrown in with murderers and rapists in eternal agony.
Perpetuating this sordid control system is tantamount to child abuse, and in no way reflects favourably on a supposed “merciful” god.
That poor girl, to be born and indoctrinated into such a horrible religion.
I hope shee see’s sense one day, you are a horrible humsn being.
No-one should tell a child her friends are going to be totured for eternity and no moral person could ever see this as just or fair.
I wonder how you will react if she grows up to become an athiest, answer me this.
If your daughter becomes an atheist and therfore, by your belief, ends up in hell.
Would you still be able to enojy heaven, knowing your daughter is burning in hell?
Would I still be a horrible human being is If I warned someone unaware that he’s about to walk into an open manhole cover so that he he might avoid serious injury or even death? How much more important is it to warn people of the coming wrath of God? And yes, His wrath is just, because man has refused to acknowledge, worship and obey the very God who has created him.
The God you descirbe reminds me of Kim Jong Il……I dont want to go to North Korea when I die!
Ah, but what you speak of isn’t an open manhole, so to speak, since you have no idea whether or not it exists. I could, for example, say “Duck or that invisible dragon will get you!” and you would simply laugh, for if it’s invisible, how can I know it exists? Can I present any evidence for its existence? No? Then why do Christian persist in their illogical belief in illogical, intangible beings and places?
You would simply assume that dragon I spoke of was nonexistant – and that’s how nonbelievers – both atheist and Satanist – feel about your God.
Prism answered your question wonderfully.
You have to understand that we don’t believe that Hell exists and until you can prove otherwise it is repulsive to scare innocent children like that.
And in what way is God just?
If your daughter stopped loving you, would you then lock her in the basement and torture her?
Also I noticed you completly ignored my question so I will ask it again.
If your daughter grows up to become an atheist, and therefore ends up in Hell.
Will you be able to enjoy Heaven, knowing that your daughter is burning forever in Hell?
Aaron,
using the family analogy with God’s justice against a disobedient people doesn’t work. The heart of the gospel is that God saves his people from their sins. Those he has chosen since before the foundation of the world to be his adopted children through Christ will be redeemed and dwell within him forever. Scripture tells us that those who persist in their rebellion are sons of the devil. God does not punish his children.
As for my daughter possibly not being saved in the end, I would have to admit that could be a possibility. However, it is my job to warn her as I have you and all who read this blog, to escape from God’s coming wrath and embrace the savior. Losing people we love to God’s judgment is a reality all Christians must confront. All of us will have someone we are close to that will not believe and will perish in their sins. But I also know the promises of God when the dead are resurrected, judged and the new heavens and the new earth come. He says there will be no more death, sorrow or pain and he will wipe away every tear.
Prism,
So, by your logic because something is invisible (or in other words, not able to be perceived by your senses) then it cannot possibly exist? If you tell me to duck from an invisible dragon that you have heard, based on reliable authority, is real and likes to dive bomb ignorant Christians and I don’t believe it, my lack of belief doesn’t change the fact the dragon will attack me and that I’ll suffer the consequences.
Scripture plainly declares that God is invisible to us, existing well outside and beyond the visible creation. We only have two ways of knowing him.
1. All creation testifies that he exists, for the complexity of the universe, from the smallest molecule to the most massive galaxy proves his incredible majesty, divine power and unfathomable wisdom. From this natural revelation scripture tells us that no man has any excuse to not give him the glory he is due.
2. God has given us his word, His very words written down and recorded that we might know his nature and character, and his plan of redemption for a race that has gone astray. Not only this but the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, full of grace and truth.
It all boils down to the authority of scripture. You don’t believe it is God’s revelation to man. I do. We could wrangle long and hard over the veracity of such a claim, but intellectually you are locked into your position and nothing short of God’s illumination into your heart will change that. I do pray that he will, for his glory and your eternal good.
Ok, first of all, I will not tolerate blasphemy against my Lord on this site. Please edit your comment or I’ll delete it and cease to interact with you any further.
Actually, by my logic, if the dragon was against all the laws of biology and physics, if it couldn’t possibly exist since it didn’t adhere to the universal rules that we and all other animals are subject to, and if there was no evidence for its existence other than an old book of fairy tales, then in all probability it doesn’t exist, just like your God.
What you speak of as reliable authority is what the rest of us see as fiction, and quoting from that fiction book doesn’t make it real. If I quoted from Dracula at every opportunity, does that make vampires real? No.
Logically speaking, your God cannot exist since it defies all the universal laws and constants that every being is subject to, and is in itself one huge paradox, backed up only by an old book.
If your God is omnipotent, can he create a rock too heavy for him to lift?
That statement alone shows how nonsensical and paradoxical the idea of an all-powerful being is, since that being’s existence is an impossibility.
Do you know all the laws of biology and physics there are to be known? If not, how can you come to such a conclusion?
To my knowledge no person alive or dead has had, or currently possesses all knowledge of all things to make such a staggeringly presumptuous assertion.
By the way, have you tested all the laws of biology and physics that you do know to prove to your own mind that they are indeed true? Or are you taking other scientists’ word for it? In other words, are you basing some of your factual knowledge on ‘faith’?
That rock analogy is simply asinine and doesn’t deserve a rebuttal.
No, we don’t know all the laws of biology and physics, but we understand enough to know that your “God” goes against these simple laws of existance, such as supposedly being everywhere at once, existing within other beings, surviving without consuming anything…I could go on and on. The laws we do know of apply to all organisms, and if your supposed “God” is an exception, then he is an anomaly. And anomalies must be discounted. The only evidence for this impossible being is within a book of fiction, which contains so many half-truths and contradictions that we know it cannot be the work of a perfect being. It was written by man to explain things he didn’t understand, and now that we understand more about the Universe, some people still desperately hang on to that old book of fables.
I see you ignored my question about the rock, and I put it to you that you did so not because it’s beneath your contempt, but because you simply don’t know and are incapable of answering.
You deleted my comment, and ignored everything in it, how very Christian of you, its like book burning for the 21st century!
I can only assume you deleted my comment because you fear what is in it.
Having nothing to counter you merely remove the argument, as the church has being doing for centuries, people with something to hide like that usually have a very dark side.
A good example of your dark side would be your admitting that you could enjoy your paradise in heaven with God, even while your daughter is tortured forever burning in agony for eternity in hell
You know exactly why I deleted your post. I gave you ample time to edit your blasphemy, yet you refused.
I’m always amazed at the consistent display of hubris from atheists, who not only claim intellectual superiority, but moral superiority as well.
As for the doctrine of hell, honestly no Christian I know loves it. I hate the idea of hell and that people will be sent there. However, I speak from a very human viewpoint. God does right, and always will do right and who are we to judge him?
I defend the doctrine because it is true, not because I love it. The doctrine of hell stands in stark contrast to the salvation that is freely offered to us all in Jesus Christ. If there is no consequences to fear then what need do we have for a savior?
Prism,
You and I have no common ground because you reject the authority of scripture. At this point we are at an impasse.
Oh, and I responded to your rock analogy. Again, it is simply an asinine contrivance geared to mocking the idea of a higher power. Go ahead and embrace the idea that everything came from nothing. If it is indeed true, in the end neither of our beliefs, our lives or even this dialogue will count for anything.
Why do you embrace the authority of scripture, when it speaks of impossibilities, has no viable evidence to back it up and is completely irrelevant in modern times? It endorses the keeping and flogging of slaves, which itself contradicts the “all are equal in god’s eyes” argument. In short, it has nothing to justify belief in it other than its age and human tradition, and is overall nonsensical scripture.
So once again you choose to ignore, rather than answer, my question, and I fully suspect this is because you have no answer for it.
If you can, answer it. If not, admit it, and don’t waste my time by pretending you ignore it because it is beneath you.
I’m not looking for excuses here, or evasions, I’m looking for your answers on the subject of your God’s impossible nature.
Thoughts of a LaVeyan Satanist.
Prism,
Why do you speak against the authority of scripture in vague generalities? Are you just parroting things you’ve heard others say?
How can you possibly talk about the bible being irrelevant when Christianity is still the biggest religion in the world today, with people being added to the church every single day? Atheism, in comparison, should be the one categorized as irrelevant.
Are you still trying to have me engage you on the rock analogy? Really? Why would I answer a contrived question set up just to make me look bad no matter how I answer it? Scripture instructs me to not answer a fool according to his folly.
An unbeliever is going to hell! The hell one does not believe in, is 1 he or she will get to burn in!
1. I honestly have no idea why you removed my comment, I wish I had saved it now.
2. Ample time?! It was barely up 24 hours! Do you think I just sit on this web blog 24/7, and I live in a different time zone! (I’m assuming you’re in the US).
I think the reasons I outlined are far more likely for you removing my post.
Its amazing that you seem to recognise hell as fundamentally wrong, yet you defend it because “God did it”.
That in itself shows an inability to think for yourself.
God presumably has the power to just stop anyone going to hell again, ever, or could have just not created hell in the first place, maybe been a bit more leniant in who he allows into heaven, or if belief is something his ego MUST require, how about some evidence of his existance?!
God seems determined to send as many people as possible to hell!
And you wonder why atheists consider themselves morally superior!
You constantly refuse to address the fact that you can sit on your cloud in paradise with God, huge smile on your face because you happened to believe in the correct God, all the while knowing that billions of people, including your own daughter, are in immense pain being tortured in hell below your feet, and this goes on for 200 years, then another 200,000 years, then another 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years, and thats only the begining!…….what a horrible scenario, and you defend this!
Even if it WERE true as you claim, I would see this as evidence that God is in fact quite evil, and not worthy of my time.
So yes I believe I am morally superior to you, and the God you worship.
You say that Jesus is our savior, but again why do we need a savior? Why did God make these rules?
God sent himself, to sacrifice himself, to himself, to appease himself…..and you dont see whats wrong with that?!
And didnt Jesus just come back to life 3 days later to become king of the universe anyway? What sort of a sacrifice is that!
Plus you state that the bible is “true”.
How did you come to this conclusion? Because the last time I checked, donkeys couldnt talk.
You can formulate whatever conspiracy theories you like, but the bottom line is that I will not tolerate taking the Lord’s name in vain on this site.
You’re trying to put words in my mouth. I never wrote or even suggested that the doctrine of hell is fundamentally wrong. I simply wrote that the idea of hell repulses me. The idea of spending my entire life in prison repulses me yet I agree that prisons are necessary. I agree with God’s justice to do away with unrepentant sinners. Just look at the mad world in which we live where drug lords kill busloads of innocent people indiscriminately, and continue to live lives of opulence. Where is the justice? God will repay everyone for deeds done in the flesh on that great day when he judges the living and the dead. No one gets away from divine justice. This should be a great comfort to those who have been unjustly treated. If you don’t turn to Christ for salvation you too will answer to God for every word spoken and deed done during your life.
BTW – Thank you for openly admitting what I’ve long known about most atheists I’ve encountered. Hitler thought the same way about ‘his people’.
I speak against the scripture’s authority in vague generalitites because I’ve forgotten the exact passage numbers in which the flogging of slaves is permitted.
The Bible is irrelevant because it denies the theory of evolution, even when this can be observed in bacteria and insects, defies the laws of physics and biology, and has no evidence to support it. Simply because many people believe in one thing, it does not automatically make that thing true. For example, most people in the world once believed the Earth was flat.
So, I can take that to mean that you don’t know, because that question has no possible answer that corresponds with your beliefs.
You call me a fool, which I find ironic since you continue to blindly believe in a being which can’t be possible, as I have just shown you with the rock analogy.
If your God does exist, he can’t be omnipotent. Surely, despite your blind and illogical faith, even you can see that for yourself.
It amuses me that you think the rock analogy disproves the existence of God. Human reason is your god and your rationale has become your savior. May God have mercy on you.
It’s obvious this discourse has run its course. You have no interest in thoughtfully considering the veracity of the truth claims of Christianity. You simply wish to denounce and ridicule me and my faith. Thus, I am asking for you to quit posting here. All subsequent comments will be removed.
It quite clearly disproves the existance of an omnipotent God, and I don’t see how you can deny that while trying to argue from a logical standpoint.
I have considered your claims at length and found nothing to back them other than a scripture of doubtful relevance, which even contradicts itself in many places (as shown with the rock analogy, which you still cannot successfully explain)
I rather think you have not even given more than a moment’s thought to what I have suggested, other than how to deny it from a Christian standpoint. I am not looking to ridicule your faith, but simply to show you that it is riddled with inconsistencies and in places is totally illogical.
If I am guilty of not deeply considering your words, you are also guilty of refusing to consider any other viewpoint than yours. Hypocrisy is a terrible thing.
As I can see that you are incapable of considering anything which doesn’t fit your scripture, I will comply with your wishes and discontinue posting on A Peculiar Pilgrim – if only to avoid the further degeneration of our debate into a mere exchange of insults.
(Excepting the case in which you reply to this post, in which case my pride will not allow me to discontinue the debate.)
Despite our differencwe of views, I’ve enjoyed posting on a Peculiar Pilgrim and I find it a shame that you no longer wish to continue our discussion.
I understand that there are some things people must realise in their own time, and so I hope it shall be with you.
Thoughts of a LaVeyan Satanist.
I went ahead and approved this because I have a proposal. If you will drop the ridiculous ‘no win scenario’ rock analogy we can continue to discourse. The question has been formulated from the mind of sinful, rebellious man to make God impossible to exist no matter how the question is answered. Not going to play silly games with you.
You are being presumptuous when you write that I won’t consider other viewpoints than my own. How do you know this? I spent the first 23 years of my life moving from viewpoint to viewpoint, which included an acceptance and subsequent rejection of the Christian faith and the God of the bible.
I do not think I am superior to all other people thank you very much!
Now who is putting words in peoples mouths! I only claimed my morals are superior to yours, and the God you worship.
I even gave evidence (which you largely ignored) backing this claim up!
I think its a fair enough point, so comparing me to Hitler (who accepted Jesus into his heart and is now in heaven by the way) is a cop-out.
Hitler also thought that everyone not like him should be punished, much the same as how you feel! (Not nice is it!)
Do you honestly find it fair and just that a mass murderer who “Finds Jesus” wll be allowed into heaven (Hitler or otherwise).
Yet a good person (such as Ghandi) who happens to be of a different faith or no faith at all will be tortured for eternity!
I ask again, why do we need a savior?
What sort of “Just” and “fair” God would set up the rules so that we need this savior to get into heaven?
God makes these rules, God created hell, therefore God is evil.
Prisons are necessary but they (in the western world) conform to certain human rights standards, and the punishment fits the crime, after a fair trial, and you can be released early on good behavior or even appeal your sentance, it seems mankind is far more just than God!
As I said before (which you ignored)
God sent himself, to sacrifice himself, to himself, to appease himself, and you dont find this silly?
You also continue to gloss over the fact that you admitted you can enjoy heaven, you can sit in paradise with God gleefully fully aware that billions (including your own daughter) are being tortured and burning forever right below your feet, screaming for help! Its really quite sick, what compassion Christians have!
Are you even aware that Jesus the “savior” is nothing but a scapegoat, you pass all your bad deeds onto him then carry on your life without addressing the problem.
If you do something wrong first you must acknowledge that wrong deed then try to correct it, then you must seek forgivness from those you have wronged, then ultimatly, attempt to forgive yourself, and if you cant, try to live your life with that burden.
Just accepting Jesus and getting on with your life is a very cowardly way to behave, look up Scapegoat in the dictionary and you will see that is exactly what Jesus is.
And scapegoats are not good things, they should certainly not be worshipped.
And it just proves more that God is NOT just, if a man walked into a court room and said “Do not send this serial killer to prison, send me instead” do you really think the general population would be ok with that!
But as I said before (which you also ignored….you like ignoring things!) is that Jesus didnt really commit much of a sacrifice at all! He died a horrible death, but then 3 days later came back to life and now he’s king of the universe and worshipped by bllions!
Its like if I donate $10 to charity, then 3 days later the Charity gives me $1,000,000 back, makes me president of that charity, and from now on all proceeds come directly to me, and i’m now praised as the “savior” of that charity.
Now if Jesus had been sent to hell for eternity for our sins, THAT would be a sacrifice.
And if this savior is so important, then why doesnt God just give us some evidence of his existance, surely that would save billions of souls, and he could do it! Instead of hiding away and allowing science to prove him wrong!
You also ignored my question about how you arrived at the conclusion that the bible is “True” and what you think about the talking donkey in numbers, or do you just gloss over that? Because you seem to gloss over lots, that must be what faith is.
Your post shows a basic ignorance of what the Christian faith is truly about.
1. When you say that Hitler was a Christian and now is in heaven you demonstrate (if you weren’t being sarcastic) that you have no idea what a Christian is or how the grace of God works.
2. Christians don’t feel everyone different from us should be destroyed. This is why we are fervent in evangelism. It is why I bother dialoging with people like you instead of playing video games or some other leisure activity.
3. Grace isn’t fair. The definition of mercy is receiving something totally undeserved. However, mass murderers are acting out of a reprobate heart. People like this are often simply obeying their base nature unrestrained as a judgment against them.
4. Ghandi or any other ‘good’ person does not inherit eternal life based on good works for scripture shows us (as well as every day experience) that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Also, it says that none are righteous and no one does good, not even one.
5. We need a savior because we are sinners. Haven’t you read the story of Adam and Eve. Who set them up in an ideal situation and gave them one simple rule to obey? Is it God’s fault that they did not keep it?
6. Hell isn’t evil. It is the just end for all evil beings (e.g. the devil, his angels and all rebellious men). How can justice and goodness reign if rebels against the righteous kingdom aren’t put away for good?
7. Christians ARE compassionate because we plead with people to flee from the wrath to come. When judgment day comes it is too late to help the lost. I believe scripture when it says God will wipe away every tear.
8. I find it ironic that you call the savior a scapegoat because that is EXACTLY what Jesus is. Dig a little deeper on the origins of the term ‘scapegoat.’
9. Forgiving others, having their forgiveness and forgiving yourself will not save you. You need God’s forgiveness. That provision has been made through Jesus Christ.
10. Substitutionary atonement is the heart of the gospel. The analogy to a human court setting doesn’t fully apply. A sinner set free by Christ is one that has been changed by his grace and is no longer a hardened sinner enslaved to his depraved nature. Whom the Son has set free is free indeed. If the God of the universe desires to have mercy on whom he has mercy who are you to talk back to God?
11. You have no idea what Christ suffered in the days leading up to his crucifixion and the sufferings of the cross itself. This was not simply another Roman execution. Christ, the perfect, sinless Son of God, having experienced a close fellowship with the Father from eternity past is cutoff from that fellowship at his darkest hour. He took upon himself the sin of the world and the full wrath of God almighty. This is suffering beyond human imagining.
12. Our sin is what has hidden God from us. Spiritually we are blind and dull of hearing. He has given us all the evidence we will ever need to know Christ: the testimony of scripture and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit that reveals the truth of the gospel to our hearts. The evidence that these two things suffice can be readily proved by the fact that 2,000 years after Christ’s death and resurrection the church that bears his name can be found in every tongue, tribe and nation on earth.
13. The God that created the universe and all the rules that govern them can bend them to his liking as he wishes. This includes making donkeys talk.
BTW – when you claim to have higher morals than God almighty you are claiming yourself to be greater than God. That makes you and all who other atheists superior to all living things.
If your going to remove my comments (which again, is very Christian behavior and just modern libricde), again showing you have something to hide thats fine.
But you have my email address and i’d be happy to continue this discussion via email.
Patience. I’m now moderating comments so there will be a delay before they show up.
Can I also add (sorry, I dont mean to flood) that you dont get sent to prison just for not believing the judge exists….
Your right, that’s just the final act of rebellion by hardened sinner. Sin is what sends a person to hell and unbelief is the granddaddy of all sins.
I have a feeling we will never fully agree on anything we say.
There is so much to that massive long response to my massive long post that just makes me boil over and want to start typing a mile a minute but sadley I’m off to dinner now and don’t have time time.
I’ll respond to it in due time, however just as a quick preview if you will
1. I dont believe the bible to be true, at all, I believe it is bronze age mythology full of make believe stories and Adam and Eve is one of those stories.
Please keep this in mind when you respond to my posts.
2. I’m fully aware that scapegoats were originally when people would press their heads to goats to transfer the sins and send them into the desert to die, I can’t believe you would bring that up yourself as I see this practice as utterly ridiculous, and I still think Scapegoats (Jesus included) are cowardly and not good things at all, I outlined my reasons why in my last post.
3. I obviously do not feel myself to be greather than God and therefore all things, as I do not belive God exists (I know that is hard for you to grasp but you need to understand that), I merely feel my morals are superior to the fictional God created by bronze age men in the bible, and some of the people who follow that book.
I certainly do not feel superior to “all things”, or even all people for that matter.
4. I certainly disagree that unbelief is the worst possible thing imaginable, do you feel I am worse than a rapist, or murderer, or child molester, simply because I do not believe in your God? (If so this disturbs me to no end).
5. You need to understand that atheists arent rebelling against God, we simply do not believe he exists, we are rebelling against God about as much as you are rebelling against Zeus, or Ra, or Vishnu, or the tooth fairy and Big foot for that matter.
My next post is likely to be quite lengthy so I hope you’ll have time to read it, try to take it in, and understand, I dont mean to take up so much space on this blog.
I’ll wait for the feature length edition before responding 😉
I’m curious though. If you are convinced that we will never agree why pursue the dialogue? Why is it so important for you to convince me of error? If I’m content with my belief and it brings me comfort and hope, and your assertion that God doesn’t exist ends up being true, what harm has been done? I’ll die someday and blink out of existence. I’ll never be able to feel even a moment of regret or embarrassment for my convictions, I just won’t care. No harm, no foul.
However, if my convictions turn out to be true there will be great injury done to you and all who do not believe because a day of judgment is coming and every person must give an account of himself before God. Even as a Christian, covered by the blood of Christ, the thought overwhelms me. As scripture states, “It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Heb 10:31)
I’m not suggesting you believe simply to ‘play it safe’ just in case God does exist, I just pray it will give you pause and you would consider the person and work of Christ more seriously.
Im sure you’ve already heard of Pascals wager and it is simply not true
a) I dont believe, I cant make myself believe in God anymore than I can make myself believe in fairies.
b) Belief out of fear is not true belief (although you already covered this I still want to make that point)
c) You have infact lost so much, you live your life worshipping a being that isnt there and gave your life over to an organisation rather than living for yourself, enjoying the world and embracing life.
You are divided from other people because you believe they will all eventually burn forever in hell and it has given you a very distorted view of humanity, the universe and life itself, you have lost more than I can even fathom, but unfortunatly, because of this cult you are a member of, you will never even realise this, its really quite sad.
Can I ask, assume for a minute that I am correct and there is no God, would you want to know the truth? Honest answer…
I persue this debate for a few reasons, as I am fully aware I will never change your mind:
1. So other people will come on this blog, read it, see my point of view and how much sense it makes, compare it to your cult-like answers, and give them something to think about
2. Religion has alot of power, we live in a religious world and I do not think that is a good thing, anything I can do, no matter how small, to change the tide, I feel helps.
3. It interests me, to no end, you have no idea how fascinated I am by religion and mythology and not just Christianity.
Im interested in Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, and pretty much all the ancient polytheistic religions, I enjoy these discussions.
I have actually travelled the world and seen many, and even participated in some, of these practices first hand.
My knowledge of Christianity is obviously deeper than the others having been raised Christian and living in the western world (fortunatly in the more secular countries of the UK, Australia, and now NZ).
4. It makes me think, and question my point-of-view, I (like most atheists) have an open mind, I’m 99.99999% sure there is no God, however I could be wrong, and if I am, im not going to find out if I dont question (this in retrospect is actually how I became an atheist in the first place).
However the more I question the more I tend to feel I am in fact correct, and these discussions then give me a chance to defend my belief, I also feel this is very important and sadley most religious people (I commend you for not being one of these) do not feel the same.
On that note I will also add that I never mean to offend you on purpose and if I have at any point I do apologise, I am just quite passionate about this and that comes across in my responses.
I will add though that I have little respect for the Christian faith itself, as I have no respect for what it is or what it stands for.
If it was simply “do unto others as others would do unto you” then I would be fine with that but unfortunatly the bible is so much more, and not in a good way.
I recognise and applaud the good things Christianity has done and teaches, and respect everybodies individual right to believe in God and Jesus and the bible, but just because I respect (and will defend) your right to have this faith, it does not mean I respect the faith itself.
And the good parts of Christianity do not justify or excuse the bad parts.
However even if Christianity and the bible was 100% wonderful things with no awful side whatsoever, it still would not make it true or factual, and at the end of the day thats all im about – truth.
This also comes out in my posts.
Ok, full length response, here goes:
1. I am pretty sure that anyone who follows the Christian faith, accepts Jesus into their heart and asks for forgivness is granted access to heaven, infact the only unforgivable sin is blaspheming the holy spirit is it not? So by this definition Hitler would be in heaven.
2. I said Christians believe all who think differently to them should be punished, not destroyed, and this is true, as you believe all non-Christians go to hell and you also feel this is fair and just.
3. If grace isnt fair then how can you claim God is just?
4. I think it is a repulsive belief that “all fall short of the glory of God” and describes one of the many things morally wrong with your faith.
The idea that a man like Ghandi is in hell simply because he was of a different faith, would again be evidence that if God did exist, he is egotistical and evil and not worthy of worship.
Also didnt God create us to be this way? So why punish us for that?
5. As I said earlier I feel the story of Adam and Eve to be nothing more than a fairy tail, however the idea of original sin, is also quite disturbing.
If my parents punished me every day for something my ancestor from the 16th century did, once, I would find that totally unacceptable and God is no different.
Also why did God put the tree there in the first place? How could he get angry if he already knew what was going to happen? And didnt God LIE to Adam and Eve?
6. I disagree, the concept of Hell (eternal torture and punishment) is fundamentally evil and any God who allows (let alone created) this system is also evil.
Even Adolph Hitler would not deserve hell (well he would, obviously, but not for eternity, no man deserves that, not even the most vile, contemptable man to have walked the earth – There is no justice in infinte punishment for finite crimes).
7. I do not see how “God wiping every tear” can be seen as compassionate, at the end of the day you can live in blissfull happiness while your daughter burns, this is awful.
And how can you feel compassion for someone if you think they’re just going to burn in hell forever and are just as bad as murderers and paedophiles?
8. I covered this in my previous post
9. Again this is a pretty messed up way to live, forgiving others, forgiving yourself, and hoping others forgive you, is a very important part of life! And not following these basic social, moral rules, and merely seeking forgiveness from a God is wrong, and unhealthy.
10. I asked if you would find this courtroom setting just and you tip-toed around without answering, ofcourse it applies, just because “God did it” why does that make it suddenly just.
Infact it seems to me that it doesnt matter to you what God does or says or how he behaves, because as long as “God did it” or “God said it” then all is well.
If the bible said raping babies was ok and God actually recommends it, then I feel you would be fine with raping babies.
(This is an extream example but it illustrates my point)
As I said before it highlights an inability to think for yourself.
11. I am aware Jesus was suppost to have suffered greatly, you missed my point.
My point was no matter how much he suffered, he just came back to life 3 days later and is now king of the entire universe, do you see how that is not really much of a sacrifice at all?
Sacrifce = loss, but Jesus got everything back, and then some!
I would say the people in hell are suffering far more than Jesus did.
Did you know that the story of Jesus isnt even original and is stolen from many other cultures mythology that predate Jesus by quite some time (this is fact by the way you only have to research it, and research further than that ridculous zeitgiest video on youtube as that thing is full of lies).
12. Please give me one shred of evidence that God exists, because I would say the evidence actually says the exact opposite.
In page 1 the bible is proven wrong as the Earth is 4.6 Billon years old, this is fact, the universe is (at best estimate) almost 14 billion years old.
The 200 million year reign of the dinosaurs is missing from the bible, how do you explain these things?
So again, God needs to do better if he wants to save everyones souls (and why wouldnt he?).
Why would God hide sin from us in the first place, this seems silly.
Also I can guarantee you that not every tribe knows of Christ, there are remote tribes in the Amazon that have never heard of him.
And just as many people/countries who have heard of Jesus have also heard of Mohummad, so why do you not worship him as the last prophet?
13. You are justifying talking donkeys….simply amazing….tell me, if this God is so amazing please explain why he thought bats were birds and rabbits chewed cud? surely an all knowing God would know better?
Also you still have not answered me how you came to the conclusion that the bible is “true”.
I think that was everything but I feel i’ve forgotten something, if I remember and add more I do not mean to flood.
Addition to 12. – Are you aware that Christianity and Islam are only both so widespread due to empire building, crusades, war, death and forced convertions, are you really proud of this?
addition to 10. You still fail to explain how the system is fair an just, God set up a loop-hole to free us from a curse that he himself imposed, that is manic at best, and kind of kooky, as I’ve stated twice before, God sent himself, to sacrifice himself, to himself, to appease himself.
Insane
Right, sorry for the delayed reply but I hadn’t checked your website in a few days since you had declared your intention to delte further posts of mine.
If it makes you so uncomfortable, we can indeed discontinue our debate over the rock analogy, though when you say you won’t play “silly games” then by definition the whole debate is such, since neither of us will successfully convince the other to alter their viewpoint.
If I am being in any way presumptuous in assuming that you don’t open-mindedly consider my points, then so too are you when you say I have no interest in considering what you have to say. Indeed, when I was a decade or so younger, I classified myself as a Christian, before reconsidering as age and experience allowed me to more rationally evaluate all aspects of the religion.
Once more, it seems, we are both guilty of the same thing.
And by the way, I’d just like to say that I’m glad that you decided not to delete my posts after all, and I look forward to future discourse.
Thoughts of a LaVeyan Satanist.
Note: I’m back. Been distracted with other things over the past couple of months but am ready to resume discourse. That is, if anybody’s still out there. I’ll be working on answering Aaron’s lengthy response over the next few days – hopefully.
congratulations. you have taken a beautiful, keen, and free thinking mind and condemned it to a world of superstition and fear. you should be ashamed of yourself. you’re God, is supposed to be all forgiving. as, “the lord as your shepherd”, you shall follow him blindly, without question, to your death and drag your children’s ambition with you to your meaningless grave. i hope you realize that it is possible to have morals and exercise ethics without imposing fear of a super natural being which may condemn one to an eternity of pain for not believing. you’re stupidity is so profound i wonder why i even bother with you. you should consider yourself partially responsible for a large amount of religious based conflict around the world.
beaconlight.
If what you are saying is true, it DEFINITELY prove that the god you worship is not just and loving, I could not imagine sending my children to eternal torture and then blaming them for making the “wrong choice”, specially if I’m invisible and they don’t see any evidence to believe in the existence of supernatural things.
Even it’s not a decision, none can make a choice to accept or reject something without believing first that the thing they are making the choice about is real and existent, and definitely they don’t choose to suffer for ever in a place they think is fictional.
You say they rejected God but it’s not true, they DON’T BELIEVE in a god or a religion.
I hope that it doesn’t give you happiness that they’ll suffer while you are enjoying. Because it would be a sadistic thing to believe in.
Thank you for your post. It amazes me how atheists like to ‘enlighten’ us Christians on their way of thinking. Why? Christians are called to do so. Why do non-believers feel compelled to argue their points? Is it because they have an inherent need to be right? I believe in God and glad to say so. Beaconlight, thank you. I needed to read this today.
@Faith
I am an athiest. Athiests are just like you with different beliefs. We don’t push out arguments on you unless you push your onto us. As for this article, if you daughter questions, allow her to question. Give her both sides of the story rather than one so she can make up her mind. If I don’t believe in hell, than why should I worry about going to a place that to me doesn’t exist? I’m not picking on christians or anybody. UNlike extremist christians, i respect all faiths. I just have some issues with christianity that I don’t wish to point out because i want to avoid arguments. But athiests are people, gays ae people, everyone is just a person. We are all the same. Christians, sorry to say this, your the same as athiests.
In Matthew 7:21 it said: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
@Faith
I believe Aaron explained quite clearly why Athiests are so passionate about their views.
Religion is a cancer on our lives that has been around unchallenged destroying lives for far too long.
We live in a religious world and that is a horrible world to live in.
We are trying to chip away at this theocratic dictatorship by opening the world eyes in the hopes that religion will eventually be seen for the horrible thing that it is and die out
We’ve come along way since the dark ages….lets keep going
You freakin retard! This is how bulsh8t gets passed down generation after generation. Let me tell you how this story ends you closed-minded waste of brain mater. Your daughter goes to school, realizes that her “friend” is eventually going to hell. She will treat everyone around her different and she will distance her self from anyone that doesn’t believe in what she believes in until she grows a little older to a time that she can think on her own (hoping that she’s not as dumb and ignorant as her brain-dead father), she will then realize that she doesn’t even know what she believes in and go into a state of confusion. At this point, people go into an investigatory mode and find answers to what they believe the answer is. Hopefully, she will realize that all the people in this world are equal and we’re all the same no matter how different we look and no matter what part of this earth we live in. Either it is your lack of education or your stubbornness that prevents you to look at the world in this manner. There’s so much to be told when it comes to this topic but unfortunately, it tends to nothing but a waste of words typed and buttons pressed on a keyboard because YOU, are ignorant and will be ignorant because you continue to close yourself from anything that is outside of your beliefs. It is not your fault because you have wasted an entire life believing in something and it is not easy to wake up one morning and change your beliefs no matter how much more it makes sense to you (in addition to all the money that you have given to your church because you thought your church is the ONE true church and your money is god’s money). Everything pushes you to not believe anything otherwise. Anyways, I’m only saying this not to change your beliefs but to raise your consciousness and make you realize that the world is bigger than what you think. All I need from you is to open your mind and think of the possibilities that are outside your belief and one final thing… Educate yourself. It does wonders…
This more or less sums up all the problems I have with religions like Christianity and Islam. Innocent children are made to believe that friends who don’t share their beliefs will suffer for eternity, regardless of how nice they are. This is what alienates them from people who don’t share their beliefs. By your logic, Mahatma Gandhi is in hell right now suffering for eternity. Just the premise of a God so petty and jealous that he would torture people simply for not believing in him makes no sense to me, nor should it make sense to any rational person. Hopefully, your daughter realizes that someday.
well I have read the Bible 10 times and Jesus said, those who believe in me shall not perish but have everlasting life.The Bible also has a psalm that says,the fool says in his heart there is no God,and Jesus also said, if you are not with Me you are against Me,and God is not mean or evil for making hell like some of you guys are saying,God didnt even make hell for humanity He made it for satan and his fallen angels,but humans started to sin and they started going to hell,do you think God likes the idea that His children are burning in hell no He doesnt God wants us all to be in Heaven with Him.Do you think God likes the fact that some of his children dont believe in Him how would you feel if you had millions of children that did not believe in your existence.God is very merciful and loving he talks to us every day we just have to stop being arrogant and listen
I am i big and faithful christian and christianity is not about proof that God is real its a faith based religion and with faith anything is possible let me explain the problem with atheism.atheists call themselves freethinkers when freethinker sounds more like a person with an open mind atheist are closed mind, open mind means you believe that anything is possible, and closed mind means you do not believe in anything supernatural no matter how much proof is provided,and atheism controdicts itself, heres an example,there are 6 atheists 3 say i dont believe in God but its possible,and those are agnostic atheists,there are 3 more atheists and they say there is no God, while in religion everyone believes in God.and atheists constantly pick on christians,and the christians sometimes fight back,and atheism has nothing to support it,there is nothing to support the big bang or evolution,atheist scientists just come up with theories but are never proven right,and atheists devote their lives to disproving God, so atheism is just a faith based belief there is nothing to support it, there is nothing to support God, but there is also nothing to support atheism. now i am i loving christian i am not against atheists some of my fave actors are atheists but atheism is a faith based belief and thats all i wanted to say.and atheists go head and insult me, I dont really care i know your going to say something mean to me but i am a christian and persecution of christians was always talked about in the Bible.thats all i wanted to say
Leave it be… We’re all like Greeks, Romans, etc the Civilizations ahead of destroyed each other due to the fighting on lands and who got a superior culture/religion. Look, we think of Greek’s religion as now mythology, but they believed it to be true in their time. Aztecs thinks their religion is truth, but now we consider it a mythology. Future civilizations will too, consider ours as mythology, and they’ll develop their own and claim it as truth. Then they destroy each other again. See? Nobody knows if he’s there. If you claim your religion to be true and mock atheist/agnostics and calls them full of pride then may I ask what are you? What are your basis for believing your religion? Isn’t it the same conviction that the non-believers have?
@Dr.Clawman
Can God do anything? If so why does he not prevent people from going to hell and leave it for Satan?
God created the universe did he not? And the rules for entrance into heaven (having to accept Jesus etc etc) Why does he not change the rules to something a bit more fair?
Such as “He who has a good heart may enter the gates of heaven”.
Why does he not create a middle ground for those who dont believe? Somewhere that isnt quite heaven but without the torture of hell?
You ask how I would feel if I had millions of children who didnt believe I exisited, I would obviously be quite upset, but I certainly wouldnt throw them in a torture chamber for all eternity!
I would probably perform some sort of mircale for them all to see that says “Hey i’m here” (soemthing obvious like popping down from the sky in the middle of manhattan).
I am also keen to know how you sleep at night, if you believe hell really exists, how awful to think of all those poor decent people of different faiths being horribly tortured, you must be sadistic to not let this effect you.
You also say science has nothing to support the big bang or evoloution (2 completly unrealated sciences I may add, one involving physics and the other biology).
This statement only highlights your ignorance, get your head out of the bible and educate yourself, science does indeed have mounds and mounds of evidence to support both theorys, far more evidence than your 2000 old fairytale book has.
And athiesm does not need to be proven, it is a lack of faith.
Stating that athiesm needs to be proven is like stating that those who dont believe in bigfoot need to prove bigfoot does not exist, or those that do no belive in the norse God of thunder Thor have no leg to stand on because you cant prove that Thor does not exist.
By this logic you yourself fall into the same trap by not prooving the non existance of Vishnu, Allah or Joseph Smith.
You state the bible claims that fool hath said in his heart there is no God, however I believe the bible to be fiction so why would that statement mean anything to me?
Why do parents punish their children?
A) To teach them a lesson, or
B) To be cruel
The god of the bible can’t be doing it to teach non-believers (‘sinners’) a lesson, since the bible says you can never leave hell. So, using this logic, god sends people to hell because he is cruel.
Would you want to spend eternity with someone who sends your friends, neighbors and family to a place of eternal suffering? What if you daughter was an atheist- would you be content with her fate?
What about rapists, serial killers etc. who convert to Christianity? Why do their beliefs cover their cruelties?
I know this probobly won’t change your mind, and your post was (I think) three years ago, but perhaps it will be enough to let your daughter make her own choices, and to love her no matter what she chooses.
-Teenaged female athiest
Atheiats will not go to Hell because it simply does not exist. And as far as “testing God” goes, 99% of believers believe in God only because they were introduced as kids to a theoretical statement: there is heaven and hell, the bad will go to hell and burn and the ones who believe in God and live pure will go to heaven. This is called brainwashing.
Now, here is my question.
assuming god is omnipotent, he knows the future. so, he knows who will be saved and who will not. Why create someone who will not be saved, and blame it on them? we either have free will or an all knowing god. it doesn’t make sense to have both.